Thanks for taking t he time to write out these thoughtful feedback/questions.
I’m a little confused by this post, in that it seems to be a little all over the place and comes off as a general “how things weren’t so good, but are better now and there’s a happy end” story.
I needed an example to make my point, and the founding of Tortuga was the one I came up with. That particular story was all over the place and a mess, which is kind of the point. Real life is messy. The whole thing was a big mess, that Patri and I and group somehow managed to persist through and make work.
The ending I was shooting for was more appreciation of people like Patri, especially those in this community, and both inspiration and caution regarding agency. Its really really really hard, and some people do it. If you try it and you’re not used to it, you’ll probably fail immediately. This is to be expected, and if you really want to be an agent, you don’t give up and let that stop you, like it would for most people.
but several of the problems involved (e.g. there being two factions with contradictory goals in the original group, the fact that the purchasing negotiations were complex) have no obvious connection to people being agenty.
Yes, that was just an example of the stupid crap that came up in this particular case. How we dealt with it was agenty—we didn’t just let it destroy the project—Patri did research, I figured out how our case was like an example in his research, and he figured out a solution to the problem we identified. In most cases, when a group got stuck with something like two factions, it would simply fail, and that would be the end of the project.
Sorry about the lack of definition of agency—its a term used very frequently by Less Wrong types I hang out with, so I figured it was common and safe lingo to use. I should have known better since I also had someone ask in another post. Here’s my quick answer:
Taking personal responsibility for making things happen. Observing opportunities and going for them. Taking risks.
I’m also not entirely convinced that “agency” is the best possible way of characterizing the events in question. For instance:
I appreciate the very few people who came to all of the meetings, and the people who actually put down their money and committed who didn’t come to meetings. Even the people who just did a little, took on a risk that other people didn’t, they did a lot more than the people who did nothing.
I don’t think I said anything about comparing agency, or that every single thing I wrote was specifically and directly about agency—you are arguing with a claim I didn’t make. Writing that was an attempt to show appreciation for people doing anything, since most people in my experience do absolutely nothing to make things happen outside of societal norms. Its frustrating that everyone doesn’t do more, but I do want to give at least some positive reinforcement for doing anything. If it hadn’t been for the people who came to meetings, nothing would have happened, in the same way that if Patri hadn’t been there, nothing would have happened. Its just that people coming to meetings happens much more often than Patris. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this—I realize its not the most elegantly written, and I’m not quite sure how to get at exactly what you’re after.
So I think that this post would also benefit from not just defining “agenty”, but also saying a few words about why we should expect this to be a useful and meaningful concept.
People who are agenty are people who make shit happen. Amazing things don’t just happen by themselves. That’s why the world doesn’t function like how we can all imagine it doing in more ideal situations. To really make the world as awesome as it could be, we need more agents. And the agents we do have, are almost all struggling with the sort of problems that happened in the founding of Tortuga that I described. The problems are different in different situations, but generally, there is a very small number of people on any given project that are really thinking about it, and acting with intention, keeping the big picture in mind, and they have to manage everything and everyone else, and this is very challenging.
I feel like I should edit this more since these are such good questions, but unfortunately I don’t have the energy for it right now and am unlikely to in the near future. I hope this helps!
I think what Kaj is responding to, is that the post doesn’t have the abstract clarity of purpose of a typical post in the Main forum. It’s more of a personal history and a passionate exhortation to reward agency when it appears within the LW community. It’s a bit out of line for me to play LW front-page style-pundit, when I am mostly a careless creature of Discussion and have no ambition to shape LW’s appearance or editorial norms, and I even sort of like the essay as it is; but it probably does deserve a rewrite. (It’ll get twice as many upvotes if you do it really well.)
Its true, my writing is not as high quality as most of the top level posts. I’m not a professional writer at all. Although I did get someone good to edit this for me, so its much better than it would have been without that.
I don’t know of anyone who is a better writer than I am who understands and cares enough about this content enough to put it out there, so I did it myself. If you or anyone you know who is a better writer would like to do a rewrite, by all means, I would love for them to do it!
I don’t think it’s the general quality of your writing that’s causing problems; I think it’s a particular, specific flaw in this essay. Compare this comment thread to the one under ‘How To Deal With Depression’—there’s agreement and there’s disagreement, but unlike in this comment thread there’s no deep confusion about what your point is and how your essay supports it.
So what is that flaw? My theory is that ‘agentiness’ is psychological phlogiston, an imprecise non-explanation which should be purged from our collective vocabulary with great force. Taboo it, decompose it and retry.
If I’m right about the problem but wrong about the solution, my next best guess is that you’ve chosen too complicated an anecdote. I can see why you wouldn’t want to expand on the hospital story specifically, but something about that size might work better.
The ending I was shooting for was more appreciation of people like Patri, especially those in this community, and both inspiration and caution regarding agency. Its really really really hard, and some people do it. If you try it and you’re not used to it, you’ll probably fail immediately. This is to be expected, and if you really want to be an agent, you don’t give up and let that stop you, like it would for most people.
In all seriousness, though, why bother? As long as there are colossi striding the world, what possible affect will us mere mortals have?
In general, agency provides its own rewards. I’m more curious what kind of teleological narrative us mere mortals can maintain, in the face of people who are simply objectively better than us at getting shit done no matter what?
What influence do average people have on anything that actually matters, compared to people like Patri or Eliezer?
As someone who has met Patri and Eliezer (and many other heroes besides), I can tell you this: they are men of flesh and blood, with their own insecurities and fears. And I can tell you that they cannot do it alone—why else would Patri have started the Seasteading Institute, or Eliezer Less Wrong? They have both put significant labor into building communities, support networks, and organizations because they need the help of ‘average people’.
They are impressive. Let’s strive to emulate their best qualities. But to the extent that we wait in the shadows, waiting for for them to fix the world for us, we also sabotage their efforts. They need us. They need you.
I’d also recommend you take a look at this diagram.
That assumes that the individual is in control of their own mindset.
Mindsets arise through an interaction of the individual and their environment. The individual’s social environment, in particular, plays a strong role in determining one’s view of challenges and opportunities, of flaws and capabilities, and of agency and fate.
In the absence of warmth, sunlight, nutrients and water, a seed will not grow, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and hardy seed. In the absence of resources and adequately-scaled challenges, a mind will not flourish, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and clever mind.
You sound like you’re making excuses for not trying to do things. It seems like you’re trying to defend your belief that you’re incapable, because admitting that you don’t have to be would mean you’d a) have to do something difficult like try things, b) have to face the potential for failure, and c) have to admit that you’ve been wasting your time working on things that don’t matter as much as what you could be working on.
Secondly—Less Wrong isn’t the worst environment for nurturing your mindset. For all the inaction we have around here, we at least have some pretty good memes (see the Challenging the Difficult sequence).
Anyway—I think you’ll improve your mindset as soon as you want to. I’m going to get back to trying to help.
My sense was that he was discussing one’s ‘environment in general’, and I was recommending thinking of LW as part of his environment, since it has some good memes. I wasn’t trying to correct a misunderstanding of LW, but rather encourage him to absorb good memes from LW.
Colossi are better at getting shit done when surrounded by a legion of supporters, than when alone. Any given member of that legion may be interchangeable or even ultimately dispensable, but each has a marginal contribution to make.
True. I guess my own personal narrative has taught me to be extremely distrustful of any role where I am ultimately dispensable and interchangeable—I’m tired of being reassigned to bus-axle greasing duties while the bus is still rolling.
Hi Kaj,
Thanks for taking t he time to write out these thoughtful feedback/questions.
I needed an example to make my point, and the founding of Tortuga was the one I came up with. That particular story was all over the place and a mess, which is kind of the point. Real life is messy. The whole thing was a big mess, that Patri and I and group somehow managed to persist through and make work.
The ending I was shooting for was more appreciation of people like Patri, especially those in this community, and both inspiration and caution regarding agency. Its really really really hard, and some people do it. If you try it and you’re not used to it, you’ll probably fail immediately. This is to be expected, and if you really want to be an agent, you don’t give up and let that stop you, like it would for most people.
Yes, that was just an example of the stupid crap that came up in this particular case. How we dealt with it was agenty—we didn’t just let it destroy the project—Patri did research, I figured out how our case was like an example in his research, and he figured out a solution to the problem we identified. In most cases, when a group got stuck with something like two factions, it would simply fail, and that would be the end of the project.
Sorry about the lack of definition of agency—its a term used very frequently by Less Wrong types I hang out with, so I figured it was common and safe lingo to use. I should have known better since I also had someone ask in another post. Here’s my quick answer:
And here’s something from Lukeprog:
I don’t think I said anything about comparing agency, or that every single thing I wrote was specifically and directly about agency—you are arguing with a claim I didn’t make. Writing that was an attempt to show appreciation for people doing anything, since most people in my experience do absolutely nothing to make things happen outside of societal norms. Its frustrating that everyone doesn’t do more, but I do want to give at least some positive reinforcement for doing anything. If it hadn’t been for the people who came to meetings, nothing would have happened, in the same way that if Patri hadn’t been there, nothing would have happened. Its just that people coming to meetings happens much more often than Patris. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this—I realize its not the most elegantly written, and I’m not quite sure how to get at exactly what you’re after.
People who are agenty are people who make shit happen. Amazing things don’t just happen by themselves. That’s why the world doesn’t function like how we can all imagine it doing in more ideal situations. To really make the world as awesome as it could be, we need more agents. And the agents we do have, are almost all struggling with the sort of problems that happened in the founding of Tortuga that I described. The problems are different in different situations, but generally, there is a very small number of people on any given project that are really thinking about it, and acting with intention, keeping the big picture in mind, and they have to manage everything and everyone else, and this is very challenging.
I feel like I should edit this more since these are such good questions, but unfortunately I don’t have the energy for it right now and am unlikely to in the near future. I hope this helps!
I think what Kaj is responding to, is that the post doesn’t have the abstract clarity of purpose of a typical post in the Main forum. It’s more of a personal history and a passionate exhortation to reward agency when it appears within the LW community. It’s a bit out of line for me to play LW front-page style-pundit, when I am mostly a careless creature of Discussion and have no ambition to shape LW’s appearance or editorial norms, and I even sort of like the essay as it is; but it probably does deserve a rewrite. (It’ll get twice as many upvotes if you do it really well.)
Thanks for explaining.
Its true, my writing is not as high quality as most of the top level posts. I’m not a professional writer at all. Although I did get someone good to edit this for me, so its much better than it would have been without that.
I don’t know of anyone who is a better writer than I am who understands and cares enough about this content enough to put it out there, so I did it myself. If you or anyone you know who is a better writer would like to do a rewrite, by all means, I would love for them to do it!
I don’t think it’s the general quality of your writing that’s causing problems; I think it’s a particular, specific flaw in this essay. Compare this comment thread to the one under ‘How To Deal With Depression’—there’s agreement and there’s disagreement, but unlike in this comment thread there’s no deep confusion about what your point is and how your essay supports it.
So what is that flaw? My theory is that ‘agentiness’ is psychological phlogiston, an imprecise non-explanation which should be purged from our collective vocabulary with great force. Taboo it, decompose it and retry.
If I’m right about the problem but wrong about the solution, my next best guess is that you’ve chosen too complicated an anecdote. I can see why you wouldn’t want to expand on the hospital story specifically, but something about that size might work better.
Hope this helps.
I agree that there isn’t a problem with Shannon’s prose. I thought agentiness was a clear concept, but I might be kidding myself.
In all seriousness, though, why bother? As long as there are colossi striding the world, what possible affect will us mere mortals have?
In general, agency provides its own rewards. I’m more curious what kind of teleological narrative us mere mortals can maintain, in the face of people who are simply objectively better than us at getting shit done no matter what?
What influence do average people have on anything that actually matters, compared to people like Patri or Eliezer?
As someone who has met Patri and Eliezer (and many other heroes besides), I can tell you this: they are men of flesh and blood, with their own insecurities and fears. And I can tell you that they cannot do it alone—why else would Patri have started the Seasteading Institute, or Eliezer Less Wrong? They have both put significant labor into building communities, support networks, and organizations because they need the help of ‘average people’.
They are impressive. Let’s strive to emulate their best qualities. But to the extent that we wait in the shadows, waiting for for them to fix the world for us, we also sabotage their efforts. They need us. They need you.
I’d also recommend you take a look at this diagram.
That assumes that the individual is in control of their own mindset.
Mindsets arise through an interaction of the individual and their environment. The individual’s social environment, in particular, plays a strong role in determining one’s view of challenges and opportunities, of flaws and capabilities, and of agency and fate.
In the absence of warmth, sunlight, nutrients and water, a seed will not grow, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and hardy seed. In the absence of resources and adequately-scaled challenges, a mind will not flourish, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and clever mind.
You sound like you’re making excuses for not trying to do things. It seems like you’re trying to defend your belief that you’re incapable, because admitting that you don’t have to be would mean you’d a) have to do something difficult like try things, b) have to face the potential for failure, and c) have to admit that you’ve been wasting your time working on things that don’t matter as much as what you could be working on.
Secondly—Less Wrong isn’t the worst environment for nurturing your mindset. For all the inaction we have around here, we at least have some pretty good memes (see the Challenging the Difficult sequence).
Anyway—I think you’ll improve your mindset as soon as you want to. I’m going to get back to trying to help.
I believe Ialdabaoth is referring to other environmental factors, not Lesswrong.
My sense was that he was discussing one’s ‘environment in general’, and I was recommending thinking of LW as part of his environment, since it has some good memes. I wasn’t trying to correct a misunderstanding of LW, but rather encourage him to absorb good memes from LW.
Colossi are better at getting shit done when surrounded by a legion of supporters, than when alone. Any given member of that legion may be interchangeable or even ultimately dispensable, but each has a marginal contribution to make.
True. I guess my own personal narrative has taught me to be extremely distrustful of any role where I am ultimately dispensable and interchangeable—I’m tired of being reassigned to bus-axle greasing duties while the bus is still rolling.